Regardless of whether they experience love for the person, they're hurting their picture of that person. As a caricature, I wasn't always a perfect partner. I made mistakes, right? Mm-hmm. Like we all do. And what's interesting is, is every time I'm working with them, the story is very similar. They're very afraid of being a violent man. It's definitely escalated to a point of extreme violence once the control was in jeopardy. What if you didn't even realize you were being abused? What if control looked like care until it didn't? If you're curious about the answer to those questions, you're in the right place. My name's Tim Winkie, this is American Masculinity, and our 11th episode, we're gonna look at how modern masculinity teaches silence and control, and how that impacts men on both ends of these topics to include the abuser and the abused. To help us do that, we're bringing on Jen Doe. Jen is a powerful and groundbreaking advocate in the field of domestic violence. I met her back working on college campuses. She has since gone on to work with nationally funded organizations and doing wonderful, wonderful work across the spectrum of domestic violence. I can't tell you how proud I am of her, and I'm even more thankful that she was willing to come on to help us unpack this incredibly fraught topic that in mind, please remember to take care of yourself. This episode could get a little heavy. Today we're talking about domestic violence. Jen shares some of her story. If this starts to get triggering. If this starts to get upsetting, take care of yourself, and if you find these patterns in your life, call for help. Remember, the National Crisis line is 9 8 8, and with a simple Google search, you can find local resources in your area. Please make sure to use whatever help is appropriate for what you're going through in your life. One more caveat before we get started. Jen and I are mostly talking about this topic from a heteronormative lens because that's where most of our experience lies. It's important to recognize that these patterns are more than heteronormative. They can occur in any kind of interpersonal relationship, and we wanna challenge the pattern, not the dynamic between men and women. Let's go ahead and get started. Hey Jen, thanks for coming on and the patient is, as we get all this sorted out, I really appreciate it. Sure. So when I knew you and we were working together, you were already somebody who was really open to talking about men and domestic violence, which back then explicitly was rare. Like there were only, uh, like two people in the office I felt generally comfortable with, and I don't know if I ever told you that. No, I don't think you did. And like, thank you for that. It was a big part of why I was so excited to invite you on here because I think some of that voice that made me comfortable is gonna make the guys listening comfortable about what we're gonna talk about. So you're designing different kinds of trainings. You've been at this for a decade. What kind of traditional masculinity ideals and things get in the way of men understanding domestic and sexual abuse? I mean, I think a lot of just the ways that men are socialized, right? Men and women, boys and girls, right? We're taught that we have these very distinct roles and for men in particular, you know, those roles often involve strength and like being a financial supporter, aggression, even as a masculine trait. I think we're certainly seeing that play out in current conversations. And so I think especially in younger age groups. Maybe there's not been a lot of education about what healthy relationships look like. Men learn from what is modeled to them, and so the way that that shows up in relationships can, can create unhealthy dynamics. And then I think on the flip side, there's a lot around men who experience violence, sexual violence, or domestic violence, also having a lot of stigma around coming forward, seeking support after they've experienced something like that. Or even, even being able to identify it as abuse or violence or some sort of violation, because that so goes against the, the picture of masculinity that has been presented to them. Yeah, I think about that a lot. About the inability to identify as someone who's been victimized. I, I think you're absolutely right where, and particularly with interpersonal violence, where it's somebody in your life, somebody that you're passionate with, somebody that you maybe love, there's an even bigger barrier between. That acknowledgement of victim status that like, this happened to you, somebody did this to you? Yeah, I mean, it's interesting that you use that example that reminded me that, um, my older brother when he was in junior high or high school, had a similar thing happen to him, was jumped by a few guys. Um, and, and I think that like he, he was on the cheerleading squad. He was really into dance, went on to study modern dance. Um, and there were a lot of assumptions made about him and his identity based on that. And, and so it was, yeah, I think that that act of violence was in reaction to something that these other guys thought that he represented. And, and interestingly, I mean, I don't really understand why there's a need to attack somebody for their chosen lifestyle, but I, I do recognize that again, that's something that maybe men are taught is that this is. I think, I mean we're seeing it in anti-trans rhetoric now mm-hmm. That there's this, this conflict and this tension between when, when you see somebody who doesn't fit into the box of gender that was presented to you. Um, if you're not comfortable with your own identity, your own masculinity or your your own right to like experience a full range of emotions and be a full human, then people who don't fit into that box somehow pose a threat. And I think that's, that's really unfortunate for sure. What. I think happens for a lot of guys is they get exposure. At least what I've seen in my practice and what I've seen even back when we were still doing education with the young guys in college campuses, is that once they had some space to see the options in a way that didn't make them feel threatened. The bar to having empathy for people that survived and even having the capacity to recognize when maybe they're a survivor goes up drastically. Yeah, and I mean, again, in that example, like I don't, my brother totally brushed that off as not, not a big deal. And in reality, I mean, it was maybe a hate crime, right? Like it, it was something, and I think then when we talk about relationships and domestic violence, I mean, there's just so much to unpack there around how I believe that patriarchy, we talk about it a lot in feminist circles as how it harms women, but it also very much harms men because it, it tells them that they aren't. Allowed to be this full person. And, and I just think that's really incredibly unfair and that, and unrealistic, I mean, we're all human. Like we, we have the emotions that we have and we should be able to fully feel those emotions and learn how to manage those emotions rather than having to just like push them down as something that is bad that we're not supposed to have. And so, yeah, it just, it just does a lot of harm. And I think in my, my own experience as a survivor, I married somebody very young who I'd been with through high school. Um, and when I later decided to separate from that relationship. That's when violence started there. Mm-hmm. There had been a lot of other forms of abuse that I also didn't recognize as abuse prior to that, but it really didn't become violent until that that loss of control came into play. Right. That me making a choice to end this relationship really threatened his identity and, and his masculinity. And I realize in retrospect that really, like this person didn't love me. He didn't even really know me. He, I played a, a role in his life that was important. You know, I, he. Fit me into whatever his definition of what a wife was supposed to be. Mm-hmm. And yeah. Then when I wasn't that anymore, he just kind of didn't know what to do with that. And violence was the way that he reacted rather than seeking support, finding help to deal with the breakup. Right. Breakups are hard. It's a difficult thing. It was a difficult decision for me to make as well, but we all have a responsibility to find ways to process our own feelings and not cause harm to other people because we feel like we were slighted or rejected or, or whatever it may be. But, but really in that instance, I mean, I feel like I was more of a piece of property in that relationship than actually a partner or a whole person. Yeah. The, the kind of themes. That I often hear with that, and I, I think this is a non-gendered theme between abusers and survivors, is regardless of whether they experience love for the person, they're hurting their picture of that person as a caricature. Like they, they, yeah, they literally can't see the whole person because of the control, because of the need to contain and the need to self-manage through managing them. And I think it's one of the more like heartbreaking aspects is for both ends, right? It, the person who's surviving the violence isn't even because of you. Yeah, like I think most guys can relate to, like at some point in your young life, you probably got pop in the mouth because you said something you shouldn't have and you deserved it a little bit. But that's not what domestic and interpersonal violence looks like at all. Yeah. And that's why there isn't the control. Yeah. And I think, I mean, you don't necessarily know that, like I did take responsibility for my abuse in some ways. Absolutely. If I just acted different, like this wouldn't happen anymore. But having distance from that, I mean, I now just recognize that I had the right to choose to leave my relationship for whatever reason. If it was because I wasn't happy, if it was because I cheated, like whatever the reason was. I'm an autonomous person who should be allowed to make that decision. And if somebody doesn't like the decision that I made, like that's not an excuse to engage in violence against that person. You can be angry about it, you can be upset about it. You can feel whatever you need to feel about it. But yeah, it's the excuse for their insecurity to drive the violence. Yeah. And I think for so many folks that go through abuse, it's, it's, there's always that voice in your head that says, if you just do X, it'll be okay. Yeah. That if you just meet and become the caricature that they need you to be, this'll be okay. And I think one of the really, like, painful things there, but also one of the ways that makes it easier to heal afterwards is the knowledge that that caricature only gets smaller. Like the, it's a, it's a target that over time gets harder and harder to meet because the reasons in the abuser for the violence have nothing to do. With the person they're hurting. Yeah. And so that control that they need the outlet for, gets harder and harder for them to contain. I really appreciate you sharing that with folks. I, I, I know you've been doing this a long time, but I think people hearing someone not only with your expertise and knowledge coming forward, but also your lived experience as to why you got into the work, why you're so passionate about what you do. Yeah. I think it really helps people. I, I think it's important and glad to be able to share it and, you know, I, I mean, when I think back on that relationship, like I'm also not. I'm not gonna say that I was complicit in my own abuse by any means, but I wasn't always a perfect partner. I made mistakes, right? Mm-hmm. Like we all do. And so I think it's, it's also important to be able to learn from those things and own what, what my flaws were in the relationship and what I could have done differently. Not in order to appease what this person wanted me to be, but simply to be like a better partner. Mm-hmm. Um, it's, I was very young when I met this person, and so I just didn't have a lot of experience with that. And, and there was certainly some, like, jealousy and controlling behavior coming from both sides of the relationship. It just, it definitely escalated, um, to a point of extreme violence once the control was in jeopardy, I. Just yesterday I recorded an interview with a couple's therapist and we talked a lot about how we are not taught how to marry well and we're not taught how to be in relationship very well in most cases. And it's not that that automatically means that every relationship becomes abusive. That's one of my big problems with how abuse is framed now, is now that it's in the zeitgeist, like anytime someone's an asshole, it's abuse. Yeah. And the volatility and insecurity that is required to create someone who's going to become an abuser is absolutely created in the kind of like, I'm trying to find a better way to say like relational incompetence that we have when we're young and we're sorting these things out.'cause no one starts good at this. And by expanding out that box and getting some empathetic communication in your toolbox. Things go so much better on either end of it. It gives you confidence to leave if someone's starting to develop those controlling patterns and they're getting, they're getting concerning and it helps you catch when you need to feel like you're in control because it gives you something else to do. It gives you a different outlet that actually is gonna get you what you need and want from that person, which is love, respect, affection. Yeah, definitely. And I, I mean, a lot of those outlets are also, I think, um, particularly like physical outlets, whatever that might be. I mean, I've, I've started strength training in recent years and um, like things like that are also really important to the nervous system, right? Like we can't just hold all of the stress and tension forever, it has to go somewhere. And finding ways to physically let those chemicals run their course and really complete that stress cycle. Is super important. Mm-hmm. And for people who don't do that, don't know how to do that, don't have the tools and the skills to care for their nervous systems, I think that reacting with violence is probably more likely. Mm-hmm. Because it's gonna get pent up and eventually it has to go somewhere. It will eventually explode. And sometimes that's external, sometimes it's internal. You know, that can also look like self-harm or disease. Various different ways that stress manifests in our bodies. Self-defense, taking classes and then later teaching self-defense is really like where I started understanding my nervous system and how to regulate my stress responses, because that's what that stuff is all about. You know, you, you find yourself in a life or death situation. There's things that are gonna happen automatically, physiologically, and there are things that we can. Learn to do, to try and control that response, um, so that it doesn't come out in a way that we didn't intend to. So, you know, I learned how to breathe mm-hmm. From Marines and like, and make that adrenaline work for you instead of give you a panic attack. Absolutely. Um, and that's so important. And so I think that's, I mean, that's a super important piece too of like, I learned self-defense from cops and veterans and like those guys were some of the baddest ass dudes I've ever met. They, they were the man's mans, you know, like they owned Dojos and had all of this background in martial arts and all of that, and they were some of kindest people I've ever met and they. They had done the work, right? They had done the work to understand maybe why they chose the professions that they did what they were looking for when they went into law enforcement, or went into the military, um, and had done the work to recognize that that wasn't the only way. Um, and to learn how to manage their own responses and behaviors in, in a way that didn't cause harm to themselves or other people. And then they, you know, unless they meant it too, went and spread that. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Right. Yeah. Controlled aggression, controlled violence, really knowing how to discern what is the level of threat here and match the level of response to that threat. So, you know, to me, like, I feel like I've been really lucky to have. Been surrounded by men who embody what it means to like really be a man and a full human. Yeah. Um, that is doing the work to understand themselves and the world that they live in. Well, and I think that's key. Like the, the guys I see for anger management and the ones that come in after a violent thing. I don't work with habitual abusers, but the guys I do work with are the ones that call me. I can't believe this happened. And they're terrified. They're terrified that that got out. And what's interesting is, is every time I'm working with them, the story is very similar. They're very afraid of being a violent man. They, they know the aggressions in there. They know that they're not handling things well. And so they keep trying to stuff that, they keep trying to get smaller and smaller in their world to not have it come out. And a big piece of the work for them is learning how to become violently competent, which is accepting that that's in you. That aggression and that desire to protect and that desire to do those things is there. But if you don't have some channel for it and some control of yourself with it, it will inevitably hurt you and the people around you. Yeah, absolutely. And I've even seen that on guys that come in as abuse survivors, where they just made themselves so small during the abuse because they were so afraid of being the guy that responded and kind and they didn't know how to leave. Yeah, that's interesting just to think about making that choice to not fight back when, when that is something that's so ingrained. As a part of who you are, like that has to add a whole nother dynamic to this of then questioning like Yeah, just all kinds of things around again, that socialization of men and what they're told they have to be. Well, and it, it's also a powerful weapon and heterosexual couples for female abusers where, you know, they may not be able to physically hurt him, but they can scare him. They can block his space and if they threaten to involve any kind of authority, they can play the police. Yeah. Very effectively. Definitely. And so like the amount of times, like the bigger guys that I, that I've worked with that have been survivors, it's been more on that level where therein and their partner will be in an argument. It escalates, it gets really ugly, they try to leave and the person stands in the door and continues the abuse and is very clear. And like, if you move me, I will call the police. I will escalate. You're not going anywhere. And I think a lot of guys don't think of that. As abuse. Yeah. Because no one, no one touched me, but yeah, somebody did control your actions. And I mean, I think I've been doing a lot of work around like understanding typologies of abusers and I'm not a clinician and I'm not a researcher. And so, you know, I You have been working in the world for almost a decade though. Yes. I just don't, I, I haven't ever necessarily really given that much thought to like these different types of abusers. Right. But, but I think that there is something to that. And when we really, when we talk about domestic violence, we're talking about a pattern of behaviors. We're not talking about a one-time situation. I mean, yes, there is harm that is done, but the pattern of behaviors is really kind of where that line is drawn to, where something becomes an abuse, an abusive behavior, abusive relationship. Right. And. Men are certainly not the only people who can use tactics and behaviors to control another person. No. All it takes is being afraid of a person. Yeah. That's all it takes to wanna control them. And intimidation, fear are the primary weapons of anybody who needs that kind of control. Yeah. And that's, that's even true in in places where it's appropriate to have it. Right? Like, you know, you've, you've been working with police officers, their ability to like take charge of a situation with intimidation is part of their job. Sure. And they're supposed to be able to aim it and do the other end of like serving. Yeah. But I think it's really hard for a lot of guys to not fall back on the straight line skill when they're terrified of something, even if it's just in them that they're not acknowledging. So, uh, kind of. Carrying over with the male survivors. Right. Like when you and I were working at the Phoenix Center together, I think there was only ever one call from a male survivor and he wouldn't come in the office. Like, I think he just talked to Jessica on the phone about getting a resource fairly far away. Yeah. What's been the systemic response over the last few years that's helped change that? Because we know more men are coming forward just by the reporting statistics. Yeah, I mean, I think one thing is in, in recent reauthorizations of the Violence Against Women Act, and I don't remember exactly which, it wasn't the most recent, but I feel like probably around the time that we were working together, violence against Women Actor awa, which was created in the eighties and. Um, and ultimately created some guidelines and some funding sources for programs responding to violence against women. And so in this reauthorization of awa, there were a lot of stipulations put in about requirements to provide equal or equitable services to men. Um, that up until that point, you know, battered women's shelters mm-hmm. Is kind of the term that we heard. And, and those programs often really did focus on serving women. Not to say that they absolutely wouldn't serve men, but they weren't legally obligated. And with this reauthorization of AWA that did happen. And so shelters either had to find a way to be able to provide shelter to men, which is challenging because. You're also talking about a shelter that is gonna be primarily filled with women who have, have been hurt with Who looks like me. Yeah, exactly. And so it may really not be psychologically safe or meant to be necessarily in the same space. And so things like offering motel vouchers, you know, comparable services, but making sure that their agencies had a plan for how to respond to men. It also came with agencies changing their names. So, you know, um, for instance, in in Denver, gateway Battered Women's Services is no longer called that. They've gone through a couple name changes. Um, there was another one called Women in Crisis, right. That is now Crisis Center. And so those things seem kind of small, but it really does make a shift in like, well now you see that this is a resource that isn't exclusively for. Women and girls. Mm-hmm. There's still stigma around actually coming forward and accessing those resources. There's still a perception that those are things that happen to women or that that's not for me. But I think that perception has been broken down in part by things like AWA and dare I say DEI, efforts that recognize that, you know, different communities have different needs and we need to find ways to create services and create systems that meet the needs of all people. And one way to do that is, you know, starting with considering the needs of marginalized populations. If we're meeting their needs, then we're gonna meet everybody's needs. So if we're meeting the needs of men and boys in domestic violence services, then we're gonna meet the needs of women too. But I think there's just been been a lot of movement toward more inclusive. Service provision in recent years, and that has included men and I, I'm glad to see, I mean, I, I don't wanna say I'm glad to see the numbers going up, but you know, we do, we've known that been happening. No. Yeah. And that is often what happens is when, when reporting increases, it looks like there's kind of a spike, but we're actually now just getting maybe more accurate understanding of the issue. Yeah. Wasn't there a, a law change on the definition of sexual assault, where for a long time if a man penetrated, he couldn't be considered the victim? So like coercion, roofies and poppers being used essentially negated that that man was raped. I'm, I'm not totally familiar with that, but yeah, I mean, it certainly sounds, I definitely work more in the DV space than sex assault space, so, but I. I mean, definitely men can be sexually assaulted by other men, by women for sure. And that can play out in a lot of different ways. And, and there's, I mean, even just things like humiliation, right? Mm-hmm. Like sexual violence doesn't, isn't only rape. There are lots of different ways that that can play out. Yeah. Anytime that consent is lost, things are going wrong. Yeah. Well, so it's interesting, like one of the things that I've been advocating for, for guys is we lost male spaces because we had all the space, right? So for millennia, guys could walk in anywhere and dominate every space they were in. And I, I think we absolutely needed to take that away to adjust. And I'm. Kind of finding a corollary between survivors on the other end of it where we know that most of the survivors is violence against women. This is bad. It needs, it needs specific kind of care and help. But now by being made to provide services for all genders, I'm wondering if there's going to be some kind of push to provide equal services with private space at times. Like I know there's a big powerful thing that happens clinically when you look around a room and everybody in there looks like you and has dealt with what you've dealt with. Sure. And I'm wondering if that, is there any kind of policy moving towards funding for like survivors groups that can be a little bit more like cordoned off if they need to be? Yeah, I mean, I don't know of any necessarily like policy. I, I think that part of it is just that there are far fewer men who reach out seeking those services. So like having worked in a community-based domestic violence agency, I worked in the like, outreach and fundraising side of things. But you know, we had, um, non-residential services as well as shelter. And part of those non-residential services included like a support group. I don't know that we ever would've had enough male clients at any given time to run a group at all to run a group exclusively for men. I know, I mean, one thing that we did do in that agency was we started a white ribbon campaign, um, which I think is still active. So we engaged men in the community, business owners, other like leaders to have meetings and create initiatives. And I. Get engaged in how they can help prevent these issues from happening. So I mean, I think that there are opportunities for that sort of thing, and certainly survivors would be really well positioned to get involved in efforts like that. Yeah, I think we're gonna see more and more need for male survivors, because right now across the board, women are doing better in the power structures outside of the ultra wealthy. Right. And so we're seeing more and more often where women have the financial power in the relationship. And that's not bad by any stretch, but it's another avenue for abuse. And so the people that would be inclined that before had no capacity, now have capacity. And so I, I know I'm seeing that more now. Hmm. I'm also like, I'm gonna go bother a, a colleague of mine named Mark, he runs online men's groups about. Online telehealth resources for these guys because, you know, they're not concentrated enough. Like they're, they, you know, especially in a small town like Denver, you know, you're not gonna get what you need for a group like that. But if we do a five state area, resourcing can be fairly similar. Support can be fairly in line. Yeah. With the White Ribbon Program and the different things that you've done over the years, what's worked in de-stigmatizing this for guys? Like what outreach have you seen get traction? Um, I mean, definitely that White Ribbon campaign was really successful. We had a member of that, that group who actually spoke at one of our events and he, he spoke about what it was like supporting his wife who was a survivor of domestic violence. Right. And how, just how he learned to understand her trauma and respond to her trauma in a way that that was beneficial and. Supported her healing, you know, and I thought that that was really powerful. That's, that's not the kind of speaker that we hear at domestic violence events all the time. And I think for some, some people probably didn't like that, right? Mm-hmm. Probably wanted to hear directly from a survivor, but we felt that that was an important perspective to bring forward. Um, I think also there's like, there's an organization in Denver called Project Pave, um, that does a lot of anti-violence work in the schools. Mm-hmm. And I think that's really important work too. Like they have peer educators doing like what we were doing at the college level, um, but in high school and so. Engaging boys and men in like that sort of thing where they're, they're now helping to educate their peers about what healthy relationships look like. You know, potentially these are people who even came from violent households, maybe had incidents of violence themselves that led them into this program, um, somehow, right? Mm-hmm. And now they're finding ways to make meaning out of what they had experienced to try and end these cycles that have been present in their lives. Yeah, I think it's the o one of the kind of themes that keeps coming up as I describe a lot of different things for the guys that are listening is your normal is your normal because you haven't had to compare it to anything else most of the time. Like if in your mind, oh, this is just normal, it's because that's never been challenged. And I think speakers like that. Are important for that because it lets people know that like this experience you had, it wasn't normal. This doesn't have to be the way it is. Yeah. And I once, me Too, was really kicking off a lot of guys I worked with their partners of very long relationships finally came forward and told them what happened to them and they, none of the guys were ready. They had no idea what to do with that. Like, that kind of goes into my next question on this is just in a general sense, but also maybe a little gendered, what are three things that you would want guys supporting? Someone who's surviving to know? I think number one, like understanding that trauma is not linear and yeah, it, it can come up at any time and it's also not something that you can fix. It's just, it's something that. It has to kind of run its course and has to be, I mean, in the same way I was talking earlier about like just being, having permission to feel that full range of feelings. Mm-hmm. Like that is part of trauma and healing. And again, like as a survivor myself, I am decades away from my abuse and I'm in a healthy relationship now. And there are definitely still things that trigger trauma responses in me. And so that's something I have to continue to learn and understand. Mm-hmm. But yeah, also something that my partner gives me a lot of grace around that. If I'm able to articulate like, this is what was happening. I think that's even easier for my partner to do and my male partner, um, because now he knows, he's like, oh, okay. Like, we've been together long enough. I know what to do for you here. I have a plan. Yeah. And, and sometimes it's nothing like trying to make it go away is not necessarily the right thing to do. Um, maybe distraction is what somebody needs, but I think that's, that's an important question, is like, just to be willing to, to admit that you don't know what to do. You don't have the answers. And to ask the person in front of you, what do you need from me right now? That's a really simple thing. And like I, I, I love how you just named that with you and your partner, because I think it's one of the harder things for people in general to get is that when someone's really hurting, you're not doing nothing. You're being with them. And that's of service all by itself. Yeah. Just you being there to brace them through whatever it is that they're feeling and being able to regulate. Yourself rather than getting washed into their experience, feeling helpless for what's happened, feeling responsible that you didn't protect them in some way, even though it's a fairly irrational thought that we tend to have for our loved ones. Right. And I don't think that's gendered. I think it's just a thing we think when we really love someone. Yeah. But yeah, that knowledge of ask them for what they need. If they can't articulate it, be patient while they figure out how to ask. Yeah. And remember that being there with them isn't doing nothing. That that is an act of service that is helping your partner through that you're not helpless to it. But that's, that's what we've got sometimes. Yeah. And I mean, I think another, another thing. That men can do is take it upon yourselves to learn about healthy relationships. Like the information is out there, right? Mm-hmm. Um, I mean, I didn't recognize the abuse that I was experiencing until it became physical, but there was a lot of emotional abuse. There were a lot of red flags. Um, and it wasn't until I started seeking out that information for myself after I had experienced violence, that I started to understand what was going on in my relationship. Mm-hmm. Um, and so I think we all have a responsibility to do that. It would be great if every junior high and high school had healthy relationships as part of their curriculum, but they don't, and. That's, that's unlikely to happen. There are definitely are people that are still working toward that, and there's been some good progress in that area in some states, but it's all decentralized. And so we have a responsibility for ourselves to seek out information about what healthy and unhealthy relationships look like. That way we can recognize it when somebody is using abusive behaviors against us, or if we start to notice ourselves using abusive or, you know, kind of bordering on abusive. Like we're, we're moving along the continuum in a way that isn't great. Like we can see those if we know what to look for and if we don't know what to look for, then, then we just miss it and think that, as you said, like my normal is normal. Um, but that's, that's often just not the case. So. I think educating ourselves is, is super important. Can you talk more about that continuum and what you mean with it? I mean, I think that when, when we talk about abusive behaviors, they, they all have the potential to cause harm, but some, certainly more than others. And so, I mean, I'm gonna talk about it in terms of my own experience as a survivor. I think that's kind of the easiest way for me to articulate it. But it's, it's not like my partner became abusive on day one and I just chose to stay and put up with it. No, like we, we got together and um, initially just spent a lot of time together, right? There were those sorts of things. And then maybe there was jealousy that started to show up, but, you know, it was jealousy that, that looked like love. And then. Maybe there were some isolating behaviors and, and that can be really subtle. It can be like, oh, well I just, you know, I don't. I wanna go to your mom's house anymore because I don't like the way so and so acts or like, I just really don't like this friend of yours. I think they're a bad influence on you. I think you should spend less time with them. I mean, maybe. That's true. Like certainly we all find that there are people in our lives that maybe aren't good for us sometimes, but it's, it's the motivation underlying it. Like what is the motivation there? Is, is it true? I mean, is that a lie? Do you really think that this person is a bad influence on this other person? Or was this person a threat to the relationship or the threat to that control that you're working on building, I guess if you will. Um, so are, and then the behaviors starting to make your world smaller. Like as the control has increased need the rest of the world starts to get cut out over time. Yeah. Definitely. And then I think there's also, you know, starting to make an individual feel smaller. Mm-hmm. Um, feel, feel trapped in the relationship. So then you start to see the, the sometimes kind of subtle comments on your body or like, I don't like it when you wear this. Or it can even be a positive look. Oh, I really, I love it when you wear your hair down. Like, it can start as a compliment, but then the next time you show up with your hair up, then it's like, oh, I told you I like it better when you wear your hair down. Like, why don't you wear your hair down? Like, that's when that starts to become more of that controlling behavior where now you're taking away another person's autonomy, like you're telling them how they should act and look and behave in the world. Moves from stating a preference, which is natural to critique of when your preference isn't being met. Yeah. And then it can be become more direct insults or name calling, um, those sorts of things, which again, like that single behavior in itself doesn't constitute criminal domestic violence at least. Um, but when you look at it in the context of a pattern of behavior is what came before that, you know, what are the consequences if. If I don't do this, then you can start to see how those smaller, more insidious behaviors are impacting another person's views of themselves. And so then over time, that person's self-esteem starts to erode. Mm-hmm. Um, maybe, I mean, definitely being told. Things like nobody else will want you. That's something we hear a lot from survivors. Even being told this happened a lot in my relationship is like, it was almost like he built this whole world around me. Like, put me on this pedestal and then, you know, if you ever leave me, I'll just kill myself. I'm nothing without you. Mm-hmm. And to a teenage girl, like that's incredibly scary. And I'm gonna do absolutely everything in my power to make sure that this person doesn't kill themselves. Um, oh, they need in, in their life. And, and I think it's always super important. I do a lot of work around risk and lethality assessment now, and there is a correlation between. Suicidality and homicidality. And so it's super important that anytime that somebody is making threats of suicide, that we don't brush those off. I think that's hard in the DV world sometimes because we hear that a lot, that this is a common tactic that people use as a form of control, but also like it's a real thing. It's a real concern. And so if that's how somebody is truly feeling, that should be taken seriously and they should be connected to the appropriate resources to address that piece because it's, it's not always necessarily a threat. Like there, there's, it can be a both and that this person truly does feel like my life wouldn't be worth living without you. And they have learned that when they say that you'll stay, they get a certain response, right? Yeah. Well, and I think that's so important to touch on is the, I think a lot of guys don't fully understand that someone making a threat around your behavior going one way or the other, even if it's a threat to themselves, is about control. And I, I think that's probably one of the ones that's the most un gendered as far as a control lover, that it's so, so common. And like you were talking about, it makes sense, right? This person's hurting, they're hurting enough that they're thinking about the end of their life and they really honestly believe I. Or maybe not, but usually they believe that this is the only thing keeping them alive. That this relationship, this person is, and like you said, that's an and moment because that's also abusive. Yeah. And that's just too much pressure to put on on any individual. You know, that's 15-year-old girl is not equipped for that. Definitely not. I mean, I'm a 40-year-old woman now, and I'm still not quite sure I'm equipped for that. But I know, I know how to connect somebody with a hotline or resource that they need. I know how to say that's really serious and we need to get you some support to address that. Yeah. I, I think it's one of those things that is interesting when it comes up within the veteran community because we have such a higher rate. And so I don't know many veterans that haven't lost somebody. Sure. And there's, there's always this like anger at not being able to control their, leaving the like, you know, why didn't they call me? Why didn't they do this? And I, and I think. Some of that is guys have been raised that if they control it, they can keep it safe and you cannot make someone survive there. There is no action that another person can do short of like a 48 hour hold that's gonna make someone choose to be here. Yeah. And that's a hard thing for people to hear. Yeah. And then, I mean, as we continue along the continuum, like there are things like financial abuse come into play. You mentioned that you know, a little bit earlier and I think we most often hear about that as, um, a mail partner having control over all of the finances. Maybe there's like an allowance or you gotta be, bring receipts back when you go to the grocery store. And that definitely is one way. Coerce debt is something that. I think has become more common as well. Mm-hmm. Is, um, somebody opening up credit cards in someone else's name and, and then damaging their credit and leaving them saddled with that debt. And that's really hard to get out of. Um, but then there's also this kind of dynamic shift in our current culture where maybe there's a female in a relationship that has more of the financial stability and is the breadwinner or the provider. Then how, how that can play out is, I mean, that, that person can then also use that to exert control. But another thing that I've seen is that maybe the man in the relationship then, like refuses to work or doesn't, you know, doesn't hold a job down. Like things like that. And again, having done reviewed worst case scenarios where. Fatalities happened in the context of domestic violence. Like that's another point where then if that relationship ends, then you've got somebody who's not financially stable, they're, you know, losing income, losing money, losing a relationship, potentially losing their housing. And that can definitely cause the abuse to escalate as well. Um, and, and for them to act out of that, like loss of control. So it's just, it's complicated stuff. I think that was one of the harder things in the early trainings to accept is that abuse is complicated. I mean, for a lot of survivors, the physical violence is, is definitely not where it starts. Like it was, it was years for me before any physical violence took place. And that's really confusing.'cause then you, you really don't know that you're in. An abusive relationship because women are socialized too. We're, you know, we're shown these images of what domestic violence is, and if that's not what our experience looks like or we don't fit the, the image of a victim, then we don't identify it that way and we just, you know, are partners being a jerk or we need to do something differently to be a better partner, whatever it may be. Um, and I think that always goes back to that like frog and boiling water analogy, right? Where, you know, a frog's not gonna jump in or stay in, or not squirm if he's in boiling water, but if you slowly turn up the heat over time Yeah. He won't leave. He won't know to leave. Yeah. And I, I think that is consistent in abuse dynamics on, on both ends a lot of times where like a lot of guys that end up committing those physical acts of violence couldn't imagine. Being the guy that do that like 10 years ago, five years ago. It's just outside of their range of possibility of who they could be. Yeah. And I, I think that's the scariest thing as a guy about it, is that the more I learn, the more I have to accept that that's in all of us somewhere. And that given the wrong set of circumstances with the wrong kind of support, we could all get there. Yeah. Is kind of terrifying. Definitely it is. And there's a lot of pressure in life. There's a lot of bad things happen, right? We mm-hmm. As we get older, like we, we just go through a lot and it changes our brain. It, it really does change us. And so there is always potential, um, for anyone to become violent. And that's another reason why just like finding support and ways to process our feelings and our emotions is so important because if we keep them bottled up, then we just lose control over how they. Emerge. Mm-hmm. You know, if you go to therapy, you do the work, you read the books, you do whatever works for you, um, as a way to process through day-to-day life, then you maintain control over your reactions. But they can, which is literally the only thing you can control in the world. Yeah. Yeah. You're never gonna find safety in controlling others ever. Well, on that sunny note, I wanna respect your time and we're already going over a little bit because I can't figure out a computer. Uh, can we get into the personal questions? Do you have time? Yeah, sure. Okay, great. Uh, the first question has oddly been my favorite because it's, uh, it's been very telling and very validating for me in a lot of cases. What's the truth about masculinity? You learned before you were 12 that's remained true through your life. I, I don't know if this is gonna come out right, but that, that I, um, that I have a certain power when it comes to men. Don't know if that'll always be the case, but, um, I guess the example I'll give is like, I think the first time that I even like started to think of myself as any sort of like sexualized being was I was in like fifth grade. We le lived in this college town, um, Oxford, Ohio, home of Miami. And so we're surrounded by frat houses and stuff. And like one day I had gotten a new shirt from. Thrift store or something and like it was a crop top or something, and I went out and like that in shorts. You know, I'm what, fifth grader? I'm what like 10, 11? That point in my life. Right. And so I wasn't like, I had never kissed anyone. I had like maybe had a crush on someone, but just the whole realm of like relationships and dating was still not really, um, in mind. I wasn't like trying to attract that sort of attention. And I was like out walking by myself and, and I got like, cat called by some college guys, you know, like, I don't know if they knew I was 11 or whatever I was, but like it's a little creepy when I think about we can hope they didn't. Yeah. Yes, we can hope they didn't. But I think, you know, it's, it's moments like that that that taught me that I had something that men wanted, that I had the ability to get their attention and to hold their attention. And yeah, I think that that's something that has played out in a lot of different ways as I've gotten older. But it was like, as a, a girl in high school, it was a bit of a superpower, right? Mm-hmm. To like be seen as attractive. There's just this comp constant competition. Um, and so yeah, there was something to that. And then over time I've also had to learn that that can sometimes be a negative thing. That sometimes the attention that's attracted isn't what I want, isn't what I intended to get. Um, that sort of thing. So, yeah. Yeah. You're not, go with that one. You're not flexing that in an effort to get cat called. Yeah. Right. You're not flexing that in a professional environment to have somebody do anything. And even in times like having lived in the city as a single woman, you know, there were definitely times where I was very actively trying not to get that kind of attention and still did, you know, wearing like hood up fully covered in the middle of summer and still getting cat called. And so there's that flip side to it too, is that, you know what, whether I like this or not, this is a thing. Once you learn that you have that power, like that is also how young women become sexualized, right? Mm-hmm. Is then they realize, oh, okay, this is, this is where I have some power in my life to get what I want. And so I'm gonna lean into that. Yeah. It's, I'm really hopeful, like one of the good things I think with me too is that, that I. We'll hopefully start to change, but I think we've had so many generations of a big part of women's safety and status coming from their ability to get male sexual attention. We're not gonna wash that in one generation. Yeah. Like it's just not gonna happen. But I really do hope, like the, one of the things that's always been awful is I've been kinda lucky. There's a reason I'm a therapist. People have generally always told me their story going all the way back to high school and the amount of women who, the first time that something sexual was brought to them by a man and how early that consistently happens. Like there's probably guys listening that hear about a 10-year-old getting catcalled and think it's rare. It's not. No. And I don't think, as guys, we always know that. But I'm hoping that we can make that better for us and some daughters.'cause the guys doing that are, it's not good for them. No. Like it's awful. Yeah. And so, I mean, it's super important and I think me too is, is moving us in this direction, is learning to call that shit out when you see it, you know? Mm-hmm. Like, I definitely have had instances where I have called out male friends for their behavior and with like my own boyfriend being there and being like, well, I didn't think it was a big deal. And then like, I have taken it upon myself to like educate them as to why, like, you might think that saying hi to a woman on the street she didn't ask that is totally fine. And like, but that she's just trying to get through her day. Like, you have no idea how many men have asked her for a smile today. And like, I know what you want. You're not, you're not just trying to be a friendly neighbor here. Like you, you're checking this person out or whatever. You have an interest in them. Uh, tell me about a time where pursuit of your gender hurt you. Like trying to fit into that box. Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, I mentioned that I got married pretty young. I was married at 18. Um, I had been in that relationship all through high school. Um, and I think that I just, I thought that that's what I was supposed to do. Mm-hmm. Um, I, I came from a family where my parents were still married. They are still married. Um, and, and so there was sort of this like idea that that relationship was central to the family unit and my sister got married young. Um, and so I just kind of like followed suit, but I knew that I wanted more than that. Like, I knew that I wanted to go to school and to have a career. And not that you can't have both by any means, but, um, I wasn't necessarily in the right relationship for that. The relationship I was in didn't support that. And so I think I just. Kind of didn't, I just wasn't true to myself and what I really wanted in those times because I was trying to fit into this box. That sounds like the, uh, the idea that a woman as a wife really hurt you. Yeah. Because it got, you got stuck very early, kind of going towards that. Definitely. And, and just, I mean, from, I mean, I guess probably like sixth grade, I remember other girls in, in class being like, oh, you've never kissed a guy. Like, that's so weird. Or whatever. So, I mean, there's so many messages that just like, this is the primary goal. Like you should be far more concerned about finding, keeping, having a man than anything else, you know? And, and so giving up other parts of yourself, other interests in that pursuit. Yeah. And we've just started to expand that from being largely true and. I don't know. I'm really excited to see where we go. I hope I survive to see like the feminist dream where everybody gets to choose what they wanna be, but yeah. Yeah, that, that kind of story is what most people have. There's some kind of idea that was put into their mind early about what their gender's supposed to be and then the like straight line pursuit of that lost and things that were important. Yeah. Well, on, on the other end of it, what's a time where pursuing your gender empowered you? I mean, I think though lately I'm, I'm 41 now actually, so like as a woman in my early forties, there's like a lot happening physiologically. There's lots of things that we don't really talk about as women until you kind of get there. And, and I think that, I mean, part of what that process is, is teaching me is like just how to like step into my femininity in a way that is like, I don't know, like biologically works, right? To just learn to pay attention to my body, to like listen to what it needs and, and to recognize that, well, I don't, you know, women can be just as strong as men, just as capable as men that like also. There are these physiological differences in us. And, and where I, what I'm experiencing right now is very different than what my partner, who's a year older than me and is male, is experiencing. Um, and so I don't know. It, it's, it's weird to think about, but I feel like it is kind of an empowering and it's a way of, um, me like finding other women to connect with about this and like embracing that aspect of my femininity and just the, the like amazing things that our bodies do for us and how they grow and change over time. Well, the, the connecting through gender by being around people that are experiencing your gender right, and how that changes like every decade different things happen, and depending on your gender, different things are happening every decade and men's bodies go through hormonal changes and we have not had any data or any tracking or any guidance. On how to name that and what to do with it. Yeah. And so I think it's one of those areas where we gotta follow you all a little bit and to figure out how to do it. But I think that is really powerful of just the yeah. Power of your gender and your body. And I, I mean, I think that's, that's an area where we can also like learn from the trans community, right? Like, oh, totally. Trans, trans bodies also go through a lot of changes and, and our very trans folks are very knowledgeable about hormones and how they impact us. And yeah, that's, I, I do a whole training for clinicians on, uh, biological factors of gender and how to incorporate them into care. And one of the main ways we know about what testosterone does is by talking to trans men about like, what changed for you and how you mentally engage with testosterone going through you. Yeah. I think we're very lucky to have the trans folks, because I think they're giving us a powerful window. To what happens to everybody. Definitely. I wish, I wish people were kinder and more respectful and more valuing of that. Thanks so much for coming on, Jen. I, I've always treasured talking to you about these things and one of my favorite things about doing this podcast is reconnecting with people. So I'm really glad we had the opportunity. I. Me too. I appreciate you reaching out and, um, good luck. I'm excited to hear the podcast. And that was our conversation with Jen Doe. We've got just two things to clarify. Before the end of the episode, Jen spoke eloquently about the danger of suicidality and abuse situations. It is incredibly well-documented that suicidality is a key factor in lethality in these moments. So in these patterns, when someone starts to get more unstable and starts to threaten themselves, they're threatening the people around them as well, and that's gonna be important for folks to really hone in on and understand to protect their safety. Second, I was wrong. We were talking about what changed as far as data collection on sexual assault, and I said that there was a law passed on it. There wasn't back in 2012, the FBI updated its definitions that it, and it hadn't done that in 80 years. Those changes in definitions led to our data collection, which has directly led to our funding and how we engage with men on these topics. This is an important reminder. It's not always some big politician with some big law that's coming through. Sometimes it's just changing the definitions of the way we look at things to make massive societal changes. Sorry about getting that wrong, but here we are. It's important to get these things right. If this hit home for you, if any of these topics really landed and hurt, remember that you're not broken, and remember that your past doesn't define you. Whether you were someone that somebody took power from and control over, or you're a guy that found yourself falling into these patterns and taking those things from somebody else, you can get better. You can do better, and you can live in a world where you have control. Please get the resources you need to do so. Again, if this is a crisis moment for you, the crisis line is 9 8 8. And for domestic violence specifically, I promise you, the local resources are gonna be better than the national resources if they exist. Thanks so much for listening, and next week we're having on Kevin Peterson to talk to us about the 12 Step in Recovery communities. He's a man who's walked those steps himself, and a powerful clinician that I'm so lucky to have in my life. I'm excited to share his insights with you. We'll see you there.