Just turn this other thing off. Aj, thanks so much for coming on and talking to Hey, appreciate having me. Yeah, man. Anytime. can you tell folks a little bit about your background and, and kind of what makes you the guy to talk to about blue collar work and. Leadership in that area. Yeah, so I mean, growing up, um, I played sports and I always just did like manual labor type of jobs every summer. Um, whether it was starting out like cutting lawns, but then, uh, I was a plumber one summer. Uh, actually I was an umpire one summer as well. Uh, I worked on a farm one summer, like a therapeutic horseback riding farm, so I just always did that type of work. Um, I liked it made my days go by fast. I liked being physical. For me it was exercise. What ended up gonna college for marketing. Um, and while there I ended up working for two companies in the trade that I'm in now, which is junk removal and dumpster rentals. Um, and yeah, I went in to do marketing and sales after that, um, and got a nice taste of, you know, a little bit more. Corporate sales is still different than sitting at a desk job all day. Um, but it still was, you know, traditional white collar type of work. And yeah, I decided I like, I really like being a white collar mindset in the blue collar world. Um, from all my experience it really helped stand out and I went from selling, you know, I was selling a hundred thousand lasers to plastic surgeons now sell B2C back to consumers and contractors, um, and real estate agents, everything else now. So, uh, best I made, and we've been doing this for about eight. Nice. And so that kinda lived experience on looking at both worlds, navigating that and then helping guys integrate into a blue collar world has really given you the experience that you needed for this. Yeah, a hundred percent. I'm, I'm big thinking of like all your experiences have, have reason. Um, you just gotta find, you know, the lessons learned in them. Well, so. As a guy who's kind of done both things, right, and we're seeing white collar jobs get really impacted. I feel like it's gonna be like the seventies and the automotive industry as it is to programmers now with AI kind of coming in, what have you seen as the pros and cons of both in today's market and world? So it's a tough one too, right?'cause today's market is still, you know, changing with ai. So we'll see where it goes. Um, but really, I think trades teach you a lot of. Critical thinking actually. Um, when you're not just doing, even just manual labor, even there's some critical thing in there, but like, you really do have to, you're not just cogs in the machine type of thing. You do a lot more problem solving, um, than you would think. So, especially with like our guys on the trucks, we always tell 'em they're, they're running their own small business because they have, but you're cleaning out a house, for example. There you do all the logistics, disassembling things. We teach a ton of tools, um, how to navigate safety, customer service. They do the sales, they do everything. So like, just 'cause you're a trade, you're not just a technician, you are doing all facets of a business. Right. Um, whereas I think really with the, uh, more white collar typical to work, you're doing a lot more with computers than anything else. Um, which I do think I'm fearful with ai. Um. And the way it's trending, it won't replace everything, but it will replace a lot of things. Um, and there'll, there'll be a trickle down from there as well, um, into other fields. And it probably will hit the labor field. Like I think, you know, right now there's, there's a need for trades. Um, and I'm definitely thinking that that's gonna be coming back around where, you know, it's gonna start filling up a lot, you know, and this is 10, 15 years down the road especially. Um, but uh, yeah, I think it's a really good opportunity to get in now with these businesses.'cause let's say even AI robots happen that's gonna be 20, 30 years down the road. So Well, and that's a, that's a whole nother problem. Sarah Connor's just looking at us all with shame in her eyes about what we're doing. yeah, even that, who knows what that's gonna be and no one truly knows what the future's gonna look like, but we're already seeing right now and offshoring jobs as well. That was already one big issue. Um, and now again, you know, we're, we're a part of that issue. We have over the sea, overseas phone reps. But, uh, yeah, it's, I think it's a really, really, um, good practical life skill to have in the trades. Yeah. I think that the big thing I always think of is, so I grew up around trades guys. My father hung drapes. of his buddies were in the various industries, there's a lot of, I. Overlap between the guys that go into the trades and guys that go into the military. It's more of those kinetic guys. And in both areas. What I notice different from like a white collar gig, and I've had a bunch of those too, you get to take something from start to finish where you, in the white collar world, that's not typical, Yeah. right? You're really, you know, you're really good at this thing, which there's, um, that quick expertise Mm-hmm. from the white collar end, right? Like, I remember feeling really good about like, I'm the guy for this, but just taking something from beginning to end, I. Really gives a lot more satisfaction.'cause it's not easier to explain. Yeah. Right. It's easier to explain to somebody. I went to a house today and their circuitry was old for their electricians and I, I made the house safer than a guy who's working on a Excel sheet. Hmm. Trying to explain what he Correct. Just doesn't It feels more, and I'm a big fan of like the old school hard wiring. Right. We're not, like the hard hardware is the same as we were like 2000 years ago, right? Like we're, we haven't evolved that much. Right. And yeah, like we're used to actually working with our hands and, and seeing and building Right. Whereas in Excel probably doesn't feel the same, you know, to us on, on a deeper level. Like, I have friends, like for me, I, and I, I say even the trade zone. I'm behind the desk most of the time right now and yeah. Building the company. But, um, yeah, I have friends that do trade zones and they like build bridges and I have no idea how they do it, right? Like they're just so incredibly smart, so complex. And you see those like ongoing highway projects, right? That take, you know, years to, to complete in these buildings infrastructure. It's crazy what people are able to do. Yeah, it's interesting when I got started the data on like with your job, construc construction workers were some of the happiest people in the country. And the thing that I immediately thought of is like my dad could brag about where he hung drapes, right? Where he grew up in DC so my dad would like, yeah. And then I hung the drapes in the Kennedy Center. Mm. That's, that was a big deal, right? Like especially like a 5-year-old can understand that dad put those up, right? Uh, and I always thought that that's what carried that. But now we're seeing some of the highest addiction rates in construction workers in the country. Like they're really struggling. I would, I would easily agree with that. So how, like if somebody was gonna make that jump, how do they suss out? Kind of like the, is healthy trades, this is somebody not valuing their people trades. Yeah. Because traits are tough because like how the workforce, like the, the work days go, I. 10, 12, 14 hour shifts are very common. Um, and, you know, they're really, it's really hard not, it's hard to like not do it as an employee and everything else. So for example, we do four day work weeks before because of that. Well, guys want more hours. They pick up the fifth shifts and they get the ot, which is nice, right? But then you, you really have the struggle of like routine and work-life balance. And I'm a big fan of routine is the, one of the things that makes me happy, right? So if you do not, if you're working a 14 hour shift one day, 12 another, um, and they're late shift. So it's hard. Get anything else in that day, go to bed, come right back in, it's really hard to get into routine, um, and have, you know, again, whatever your priorities and let get them done. So I think you're really looking for someone that works with your schedule on that. Um, Mm-hmm. and you know. If you're working, like, if you're working more than 50 hours, right? If you're building something, and I mean building sy sy systematically Mm-hmm. growth and anything else, it's different. But if you're just going through the motions and you have to work, you know, 55, 60, 70 hours just to make a living, like that's not a sustainable lifestyle and you'll, you'll have a advice, right? You'll drink, which a lot of those guys will drink, um, after. And that leads to other stuff. Like I had a friend that works in the pipeline and he was in the middle of Pennsylvania working on the pipeline and he is like, you're just all there in trailers and there's nothing to do. So you just drink after it. And you're okay with working 14, 16 hours 'cause there's nothing to do and you make great money, but it's a slippery type of slope. And then you're surrounding yourself with all those type of people that are all doing the same habits, right? It, it can never happen. So I, I would say somewhere that values having some, some sort of routine and gets your schedule as routine as possible. It's never gonna be that perfectly in a trade. But, um, if you can, if you can have some sort of routine and have consistent hours for people that, like, say you do work. If you work late for us, we offer you to come in late the next day if you have a later day. Right. Or we move shifts around. Um, and it's not perfect, but I, I'm just a big fan of routine. Well, I think some of that that works on both ends, right? Like the guys, Denver's a big startup town. Hmm. I, I work a lot with tech guys doing startup companies the biggest thing that I push all those guys for is exactly what you're talking about. Like, look, there's gonna be pushes. Any job that doesn't have a 50 or 60 hour week, at least a few times a year, you're probably not doing anything all that Correct. Yeah. Or like every job's gotta push. and there's a difference between a job having a push and that just being the job. And to kind of like be able to suss that out a little bit. And I think that the, what I always look for for my guys that I'm doing career counseling with on the, on the white collar side is look around at who they're hiring and talk to those guys. Like if you can start a conversation with somebody that already works there before you jump Yeah. Yeah, we do, we do trial days, so we always call it a two-way interview. So it's a way for our employees to get involved in the interview process. Um, but it's also a way for they, for them to interview us. Like see what an actual day is like before you commit, because I think, you know, people have some cost bias, right? And soon as you take a job and it's like, hmm. Kind of stuck in it, right? You don't wanna quit. The longer you're there, the harder it gets to quit. Um, and not every job's, right, for everybody, right? That's just, no. it sounds so obvious, but now people just take the jobs. We hire a lot through Indeed. And, um, I got connected with this other company and it was 60% of people on Indeed, except the first job given to them. Yeah. And it like immediately, like that day, right? So it's just like people aren't thinking about their careers, they're just taking the job, um You know, I think some of that goes into the provider problem, mm-hmm. Where our jobs, they're connected to who we are, right? As guys, the first question you get is what do you do? But it's also connected to like, how we feel good about ourself and what people still put on it. Like, I've gotta make money, I've gotta be able to bring home this. so I see a lot of guys in that fear space when they're job hunting yeah, I'm the first one. I can't not have a job. Yeah. not have a good job. And some of 'em, it's true. Like some of 'em, they literally, they have no runway, Hmm right? They, they got rent, it's coming. But that doesn't mean you gotta stay there, hmm. right? If it's a bad fit. know, put in your work, show up with integrity, do the job. But it's okay to keep looking Yeah. Yeah. And that's where if you, it's the status, right? People that leave their job every two years not getting fired, but they choose to leave, they make the most money life. Right. One hour. Yeah. Because a, a company is never gonna pay as much to keep you as they do to get you. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So within that kind of provider context, you know, to what you were taught growing up, what's changed around how you're seeing guys handle that role and take on that? Being the provider for like their families. Yeah. So yeah, for, for our employees specifically, right? Like we have a lot of younger guys that are trying to figure it out. Um, as I look to the older guy, and we have a lot of younger guys that have kids, right? I unfortunately, a lot of them, right? I don't think they, they know how to be the provider, right? And what that really means, and I mean that as like a maturity standpoint of like understanding what the job is you're actually doing. And that you're not just here to lift stuff, put stuff down, do the work, right? Like what, what is your company building towards? What's the purpose of it, right? What, what, you know, what are you actually trying to get done with the job? So for us, right? Um, we try to teach a lot more. I said before, like, we run each, each truck route runs like its own small business and trying to understand that like we're not a junk removal company because if we were, you can hire someone else to put something, picks up, up, put it down. Like we spend a ton of money in marketing, a ton of money in logistics, uh, software technology. Um, and we're building systems to, we go, we do stand day service. We did like six jobs a day within like the hour that they booked and we have an hour radius. All the service, like a lot goes in to make that happen, to help clients and their experiences and who we hire and, and people that trust us inside their homes. So, right, like you're building an actual service that provides value, like you're actually doing something that, that matters and needs to have to get done. And then, you know, are you continuously getting better at that? And going back to the provider question, right, is you need to be, I think the type of person that, um. That is constantly developing, right. Uh, to better themselves, to be a better provider, a better person, a better father for your, your kids in that sense. Um, and I say that because we have one kid that we, we young guy, he like 28. I don't really kid anymore. Um, but we let go and came back and he's got young kids and once he got kind of put in that situation, rightly so, he did some dumb things. We brought him back for 90 days and he's been absolutely amazing. And it's just seeing a different maturity and how he looks at himself, you know, and then text that he sent me and everything else that, um, you know, he just knows he has to be a different person now to be that provider, right. For that. And I think, I think that's like the biggest thing I would like to help my guys more and understand with like, like if, if you just go through the motions yeah. You're not gonna get, get really anywhere, right? You have to develop that and, um, uh, I actually, it's the one small story with me. Uh, I like, I like using shrooms in therapy. Actually, that's, it's a side note on it, but one time taking them, and I took a microdose, um, and I really just thought about like, my role in anything, like what the company I'm building, everything else, and really was just to be the provider for, for my family, right? Like, and I, I don't have kids yet, but that's where my mindset was. Like, it's just so important to have that role. Um, and it meant so much to me in that moment. So, um, I think it's really, really important to have that type of purpose, which is Well, I like how you, you kind of balanced out both ends of kind of what providing means, right? And some of it, that word is gonna change con when context right. So if you're not providing value at where you're working, you're not displaying excellence in anything. Like, if you can't get better at job you're doing, it's probably not somewhere you should stay, Hmm. right? Like. We need to, like, just for our own psyches, Yeah. need to feel good at what we Okay. Like we need to feel competent. so if it's just a job where there's no competency to it, probably find something else. But if there is a competency to it, which almost every job has, I don't care if you're making fries at McDonald's, there's a competency thing. There's a, there's a learning track that you can take. Yeah. Make sure that you, when you're done with a day, that you feel good about what you put out. Like regardless of what the boss is doing, regardless of the toxic culture or whatever. Did I do my part well? Just for yourself? you ever seen the founder? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So we played it for all of our employees, um, because our whole is a franchise or business model, Fred Turner, because you brought, I don't care if you cook fries at McDonald's. Fred Turner was a fry chef at, Yeah. at McDonald's, and he eventually became the CEO. Yeah. it's pride in your work for who you are as a person, even if you're in the work. Worst workplace, get outta the workplace, but don't let it ever affect your, the way you, Yeah. look at your job and get yourself done. Yeah. And I, I think that's the trick with it, right? If you're doing that and there isn't anywhere for you to go get a different job, Yeah. right? Like, learn how to be good at that, but then look for the next step.'cause if that company's not providing it for you, there's no harm, no foul, but it's time to Yeah. And I think that goes into the other end of it where when we're talking about provider in a family sense, if you're choosing to kind of take on that traditional role of I'm the one bringing in the money so that our family's okay, money matters. You, you do have to look for progression in cash. Um, I think where I kinda see the problem go is younger guys not prioritizing that enough and older guys over prioritizing the money where they get in that habit of like, I'm always looking for the next big check. Instead of like, wait, I've got enough right now. Maybe I can ease off the gas so I can be around my kids Right. And that's where, for me, I don't have my kids yet. So I'm balancing that right now because I can't, you know, work many hours. My business partner has bunch kids and he just came on full time. Um, and yeah, we're, we're seeing that balance and I, yeah, I get it. I can't, you And what I see with business runners when once they get kids, their policies get a lot softer for their employees for some reason. Right. Because they're like, oh no, this is hard. Yeah. Well, and that's where, yeah, I try, I use that when I talk to my partner about something, I'm like, you gotta relate to the, you know, our guys have this, and like, we, we, we we're kind of, whatever we do, right? We're always being watched, you know, we're just like parents, right? And they look at you into what you do. What, yeah, what key, what do you tolerate, right? What can you get away with, what do you praise? So, um, yeah, I, I, I agree with that. Yeah. Well, and that's a, that's another thing I work with a lot of my entrepreneurial guys with. Like, if it's your business, there is a passion about that project to you, or you wouldn't have picked that business. Right. And no one's gonna work as hard. For your passion as you will. And so if you are like leaving at four every day, why would your people stay till Yeah. Right. I think that's just people need to take that on a little Yeah. I think it goes much better because there's nothing wrong with leaving at four if that's the company culture and everybody's doing good work and that's. Hmm Y'all can make money doing that. Great. hmm. Like as a therapist, that's my favorite thing to see. Yeah, time with things that matter to you, yeah, but that's not how most businesses start. yeah. Well and that's ironic too'cause right now that's what we leave, like our managers actually leave at four, but that's you. They work five work, five day worksheets and then they're on call after four for any employees there still out. We work, you know, different shifts. Um, but the managers still work more hours but they still perception of reality, right? So you see, well wait, why is he doing four?'cause he's working five days plus he's on call and you're working four days. So, yeah. But, uh, in the beginning, especially for us, I mean. I, I worked all day, every day for the first, you know, two years, you know, nonstop. And I ruined my body in, in the process and yeah, it took a while to get back healthy. Well, that kind of goes back to a little bit of what we were talking about before we started recording around. You know, you can only do one or two things well in your Hmm. and you're gonna have more things than one or two that you value. And so sometimes, you know, if it's that time where you don't have your person yet, you don't have kids, you don't have other obligations, and you wanna go pound out 60 hour weeks. For a little Yeah. Yeah, Not like that's a big push. It can't be forever. It's not the worst yeah. We have a call and you see me a little chunky. You're like, oh, his business is doing well. Alright, here we go man. That's fun. Well, so I guess this kind of moves into, uh, something that I'm really excited to hear your take on this is, so you've now, you've done both ends of the spectrum. You've employed guys, I imagine you've employed some guys that have come outta white collar, work into blue collar work and mentored some blue collar guys into white collar work over the Yeah, What's something that guys with college degrees know better than guys without it? And what's something that guys that just jump right into work and have been like in the trades the whole time? No better than the college guys. so we, at the end of our day, we do financial logs. So we run gross profit. Um, we teach guys, you know, on, on why the margins matter. We go over like things like revenue per hour, productivity, you know, your disposal, your fuel, everything. Um, and they do the math and everything else. So one, doing the actual math is a lot easier for the white collar college guys, right? And everything else. But why we do the spreadsheet, why we do the finance financials. That is the biggest difference I see between the white collar and blue collar set. Like the white collar mindset will they, they're critical thinking on that. It's like an understanding. Okay, yeah. I relate to this.'cause it's, it's our KPIs, right? For why we do the day-to-day business, right? It tells us did we do a good job or not? Right? Where the blue collar guys, like, why do we have to do paperwork, right? Why do we have to write it up, write it down. And it's not about the paperwork, it's, it's, it's for you to show your work and then for you to analyze and go, Ooh, wait, I had a bad day today. What went right? What went wrong? Not just go through the motions. Right? So I see that as a big benefit on the white collar guys, right? Of you know, them looking a little deeper at to, okay, why are we actually doing this? And understanding the bigger scope of what they're actually doing. Um, where the blue, integration. And the blue collar guys would put their heads down and get to work. Right. Um, but the blue collar guys as well, as far as like. And, and, and I'm talking about the, and I'm looking at like, all quality employees, right? Because we have, yeah. Let's, let's use that as a bar for both quality, white collar, blue collar, but the blue collar guys, there's certain things in the work ethic, right? That, again, that head down mentality, because you have that head down mentality, it's like, I'm just gonna figure it out regardless, right? Like, I wanna get through this problem. Right. Whatever it is. Um, especially working in the field, in the hands of small things will have like, okay, you know, um, the fridge will fit, fit the door. Okay, let me take the measure and take out me, see if it fits. Maybe I have to, you know, um, take the door off, right? Or take the fridge, take the railing off the stairs or whatever. But they'll find a way to get the job done. And like that is the job, right? It has to get done where the white collar guys might be like, you know, this Can't get it out. is, Sorry. yeah. This is not in the scope right type of word. Now, that is the at baseline, right? Because once you train them and coach 'em and everything else, it doesn't matter. But I'm saying at that baseline, that mentality, um, and how they look at problem solving, um, is definitely different. I, Well, and I think there's, that's what I'm trying to. To get to that question is if you get those guys around each other with respect, everybody learns what they need Go. Yeah. Right? Like I remember, uh, for my sergeant's course that I went through, I was an intelligence guy, right? Office dude had a degree and showed up, and I was working with a bunch of maintainers, right? 70% of the Air Force at the time was twisting wrenches on planes, Yeah. And that meant that these guys hadn't done school. Like they barely, like a lot of 'em like. I just got through high school to get into the Air Yeah. and I learned so much about like what it looks like to take a job to completion from them, because I was getting kind of jaded about the Mm-hmm. but I was also the guy that could like get them out over a beer and help 'em pass the test that they were struggling with, Yeah. And that, so I, people need to be around different people yeah. And that it's that schoolwork ethic, right. And I'm a big believer in everyone's the same intelligence for the most part. Like you have a few people on the far end of the spectrum that are super smart and that are, that are actually dumb, but most people are 95% or wherever the actual percentage is, is right around that middle. Right. Um, a bell yeah, all, we're all it's a bell curve, right? So really what that means is that it's what you are passionate about. What you're interested in is what you actually learn and retain. So like you asked me about cars, we would have a ton of trucks, like at our company, and I just, it doesn't stick to me. I used to, in high school, I couldn't name like three different. And I'd be smarter, like book smart and other stuff. But like, I just, I don't have an interest. I never have. I never will. May, maybe I will, I dunno. I just don't, so like, it doesn't stick with me. And like, I have a friend who we bust his balls because he didn't get in West Virginia and that's like one of the highest acceptance rates, you know, in, um, in the country. And, and he owns his own business that was super successful. He is one of the smartest, like life skill, everything. Like, he just has always had it down so well. Um, and it's what you're, what you care to learn. So if you don't think school has value, you're not gonna pay attention in school. Like, it's just, that's, that's what I believe firmly on that, again, the bell curve. Best way of putting it. Well, I think the, I really like your analogy around the, the paperwork and then the, just like getting your head down to get a problem solved and fixed is, I think if you wanna get really good at whatever you're doing, gotta be able to do both, right? You've gotta be able to like take on and get frustrated and cuss at a project for a while. But then if you don't have the ability to sit down in the quiet and assess like, what did the work go? How did it go Right. You are gonna cap out on how good you can get if you don't have both of those Yeah. Well, and that's where I think that that third kind of category is like that entrepreneurial category, right? Where you're getting a mix of that, because I think you really need a mix of that, um, in order to survive, like entrepreneurism, like I think that word gets thrown around all the time, but, um, but you really do, like, it is a grind and Yeah, constantly. You know, we, we just had a record breaking week last week and I still feel like we're not doing enough, right. Yeah. Not going anywhere. So. So I think, I think that's the, that's why so few people actually are entrepreneurial. I think we push too many people into it. I think most people just want to do what they do and have the details around them managed Yeah, because that's how we operate, right? Like you talked about how we were 2000 years ago, right? We're supposed to be operating in groups of 20 people where like if I make the shoes, I'm the guy that makes the shoes and you're the guy that makes the vest. And that's how we get around and it's okay, right? And then yeah, there's like one in 10 of us who are like, no, I'm the guy that leads this. And like, I'll help everybody organize and I'll push us to get to this thing and build this thing better. Right? But most of us just wanna do something. Well, yeah, and for an entrepreneur, you it, there's so many things you need to do Well that, that doesn't work. yeah. And you gotta, again, just be really, really obsessed, I think, uh, to grind through it. Because that's like, the only way, like if I didn't have almost like, like productivity, anxiety, if I'm making this work and now having, you know, employees that I'm responsible for, uh, yeah. I, I don't know if I would be able to do it all the time. Well, I think that's worth talking about. I'm glad you brought it up. Like one of my big pet peeves as a clinician is I really dislike how we've convinced everyone that stress is anxiety. Hmm. Like stress is healthy, Hmm, stress is why we get outta bed in the morning. I. Stress is why we get to work on time. Stress is why we do that presentation. Well, why we do that project? Well, you need stress, you need some motivation. And they did a study on heart conditions. hmm. And so for the eighties, they convinced a bunch of guys that, oh my gosh, you've got high cholesterol. If you get stressed, you're gonna die. Hmm. And they made all those guys stop working and they made them afraid. And so they had Mm-hmm. Because now all of a sudden time they felt stressed about something. They tensed Yeah. But when interview goes 90 year olds, and they're like, oh, what's stress mean to you? It's fine. It means I got something to do today. Hmm. So for you, when you talk about that, like that grind culture really pushes stress into anxiety a lot of Yeah. Yeah. how do you balance that? Like how do you know? I'm, I'm lined up with where I need to be. I'm really motivated. I'm really pushing, but I'm okay. Versus I'm, I'm spinning and I'm working too much and I'm getting sloppy. So we talk about anxiety first, right? So I, I, I definitely know the difference between my anxiety and stress, um, and what, when they're often related. But I do have like, like I was a kid that there's always, I feel like the entrepreneur started like, oh, I didn't do well in school and then I came up. No, I was average. I worked really, really hard and I was average always. Um, and I always put the most effort in.'cause I just felt like I had to take that extra course to get into college to do this or whatever. Um, and for me, I have like, I do have like a lot of anxiety, just never doing enough right? And running outta time and everything else. But the difference around though, when I, when about stress is if I, if I'm stressing and not making progress, that's anxiety. I. If I'm stressing and making progress, that's just banging at work, being stressed. Right? That, that comes with doing more. Right. Um, there's a, there's a big difference between it and a lot of our guys, we see it where at like the office, right? If we're like, really, really at our most stressful point, it's usually when we're not making progress at the same time. Like, numbers aren't good, we're working hard, we don't feel like we're getting anywhere we feel stuck, right? Versus like, we feel like we're making progress. It's like really, really tight knit bonding and community. When you're stressed together as like, as a team and working towards team goal and accomplishing it. Like, for me that's like forever bonding. Like there's, that's the difference between the two. Um, because I mean the, like, I, I, I prefer or compare a lot of things to fitness, right? Like the more stress you have in your body, the stronger your muscles grow. So I think it's the same thing, you know, if you wanna grow, like you need discomfort, um, in your. Yeah. Discomfort not, uh, not pulling a Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly right. So there's still a, uh, a max. You know, you can, you can push it, Yeah. but, um, you know, I, I just think it, yeah. It matters what you're working towards and, and who you're doing what then do you feel you're making progress? yeah. I like the, I like the progress analogy because I, I think that a decent way to describe anxiety is when fear and stress have a dysfunctional child. Hmm. Right? And you know the difference between fear and anxiety. If, if I'm afraid of something and I come up with a plan makes it not hit as hard or to avoid it. that plan makes me feel better. That's fear.'cause I've Hmmhmm. right? I've got, I've got progress. If I do that and I just go to the next thing, or no matter what kind of plan I come up with, this fear isn't going away. We're now in anxious territory, and I think that lines up really well with the stress idea. You're stressed when you feel like you're getting traction. Like there is a problem. I got stuff to do. Let's go. And I'm working on it. And it might not be moving fast all the time, but I feel it moving. Hmm. I feel like I'm chipping away at this problem, versus I'm just grinding into a wall that isn't moving. Yeah. And I, most of my thing, uh, I, I get the second recurring pat pattern when that happens is where I feel like I'm not working hard enough at that point. So I'll work harder, I'll do all-nighters, right? Instead of, you know, eliminating stuff, working smarter, and then I'll get burned out right from that. And it, I, it's real like we're doing again with our company right now, it's taking a step back, right? And rebuilding, right? That whole, all the cliches in life are true. Like one step backwards, take two steps forward, right? Um, so that's kind something I have to learn, but you need to be able to catch yourself and be aware of it.'cause it is really easy to get caught in that kind of rat race, you know, mindset. Um, and he gets stuck. And no one nails the balance No. Right. And that, and I think that's where a lot of younger guys I work with, they're always freaked out about how they're freaked out of just recognizing that everybody's struggling Yeah. Right? I think a lot about trying to pick up this podcast, right? This is like, I'm on my 10th Hmm. Yeah, so like two months reading everything, grinding on like video editing, spending 30 hours on a given day on trying to get something right until I finally hit that point where like, okay, I'm exhausted. This is starting to go poorly. I now know enough to know what I need to hire out. I now know enough to know like how to get the right kind of help Yeah. and I don't think you get there without overdoing it a little bit. Hmm. The trick is, is to catch it before you overdo it so much that you're just straight burnt out, that you just have to walk away and put down whatever it Yeah. And that's where the trick with it. we're, I'm starting a, a second company right now. Um. In, in crypto. So unrelated to blue collar, right? Um, but the lessons I've learned, especially with one of my business partners who is more the crypto expert, but hasn't been, hasn't built a company before. I was like, dude, too much paralysis by analysis. Like, you just, we just gotta make the call, get 'em moving, we'll learn faster by what doesn't work. Like the, the first step's, the hardest, right? Like that is always what it comes down to.'cause you just learn and you're afraid to put yourself out there. You're afraid to be cringey. You're afraid of what people will say and judge, and failure, right? Because it is normal. Your body, like mind, you don't wanna fail, right? Because back in the day I go that hard wiring, like, you failed, you died, right? Like, so Yeah. it's a big difference. But, um, yeah, that's where the first rule, I think problems really come into play now. So, I think that's, that's Bezos's rule that he came up with that did, when I heard it. That's one of those things where you hear it, it really sticks yeah. Like, say what you want about Bezos. He's got a lot of problems, but this was Mm-hmm. and the idea of a one way door and a two way door. Hmm. Right. If it's a one way, like if we do this and we step through, you need to know 95% of what's on the other side of that Yeah. But if it's a two-way door, we can go try something. Yeah, You need 30%. You're gonna learn so much more just trying it on the other side of the yeah, than you will like grinding on the research. And then I heard another I for framing it. Same thing, basis quota. It's like 95 decisions in the world are reversible, so make 'em quickly. And the other five, yeah, take your time on that. But most you make it, you can change your mind later. yeah. It was like how we have to quantify it to make it real. Right. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah. And then like, I'm thinking like the Pato principle, which is 80 20, but it really isn't, it's just majority results come from Yeah. A a few things. Um, And you never know which they yeah. until you've tried 'em all. Yeah. Well, I think for kind of the career stuff, it's important. You know, we've got a lot of guys that are trying to figure out what career to go into and how to explore it. you were talking to a guy looking to start in the trades somewhere and build a life there, what, what are kind of three pieces of advice you would give him outta the gate? So I think it kind of goes back to what we just talked about is go work at a bunch of companies and see what you like. Right. Early on, younger stuff. Like, like, like So don't get locked in right away. now. Go try some different job sites. Look around at what people are Yeah. See what works out there. Yeah. Like first. Because again, it goes into, you don't know what you don't know yet. You don't know what you don't like. You might think, oh, I wanna be an electrician. Why? What do you know about the day, day, day of an electrician that makes you wanna be an electrician? Right? What do you know about a plumber? Right? So it's like, do do some research, ask around, ask for references. Right? And that ask your shadow for free. Because you can do that. People be like, if someone, if someone came off the street, like, hey, especially me. And like, I think there's certain entrepreneurial people that, like, I'm a sucker for that. Like if you came off the street and like, Hey, I don't know what I wanna do with my career and I don't know what trade I'm gonna do. Would I be able to shadow you guys for a day or work for you day and like, whatever. And I commitment. I'm like, we need a body. I would love to be able to help give someone direction. And the fact that you asked, hold your toolbox? Whatever. Just gimme something so I can see what's the fact that you a asked it that way, there's a book of the third door and um, this kid meets the CEO of Zappos for the day, right? And he's like, Hey, like I'm, we're a costume party. He's like, Hey, you know, I'm a God fair, whatever. You get one wish, what do you want? And the guy, you know, someone's like, oh, I want money and this. And then the one kid's like, I wanna shadow, I wanna work. I wanna be the CEO of Zappa for a day. He's like, what? He's like, I wanna shadow you for the day and see everything you do. He is like, okay. And then while he's shadowing, an employee comes up and he is like, wait, how? Like, you're so young. What are you doing? Like shadowing the ceo? He said, oh, I just asked. And then he Okay. how come you don't let your other employees? He's like, nobody else asks. Right? So it's like that whole position of like, just ask, put yourself out there in like these non-committal ways. Mm-hmm. a lot of people that would love to show you the ropes, um, and just have you come, come along. Um, and Yeah. That audacity and at that point I would wanna recruit that person after it. The fact that they had enough, Yeah. they thought it through, had the courage to go ask and do that. I'd like, okay, now how do I keep this shit? Like, I'm gonna shadow show the best I ever kind of thing. Well, I think that's, that's something we forget with all. The modern ways of getting jobs is, and it might have changed by now, but back when I was doing my training, 90% of jobs still came through social Yeah. Yeah. You know, you can be on all the sites you want, but if you know somebody in the company that's willing to vouch for you, it's gonna go Mm-hmm. And so getting out there and being on some shadowing, being audacious enough to ask around the big thing I recommend for guys doing any career is if they're looking to doing like a real big switch is get on LinkedIn, get wherever people that do that job are, Hmm and then on the phone and talk to people who do it. Until you've talked to three people who love their job and three people who hate your job, because none of the people that are in the middle are gonna talk to you. They don't care enough to have a conversation about Yeah. but you need to hear both ends, right? Yeah. And that's, I think that's the both end thing is really important to, to not have bias. Right. Like you said Mm-hmm. here, that because there are always people on both end and it's, it's a natural churn of businesses, right? Like, dude. gonna perfect and. You should be people on the far end of, like, you don't like it as well, because yes, that means, you know, you're not in the right place sometimes. Right. And whether that's a toxic environment or just not the career for you. Mm-hmm. So that first point is get out and look at things, try different things. Two is don't be afraid to ask to see behind the Hmm. that, um, Dwayne France is a colleague of mine and he talks a lot about the, uh, the audacious of hope. You know, let them tell, you know, is always kinda his Yeah, What's a third thing they might be able to do? I think the third thing is probably YouTube. Just like YouTube's such an incredible resource and, and there's so much content on there now, and it's just like, day a life of electrician. I guarantee a ton of videos will come up right there. Doesn't, yeah. Um, and I, I think that's a weird way of doing it. Obviously, again, they're gonna be some bias there, but I'm sure a lot of videos will be like, this is real life. Like this is the hard work we go through and this and know, um. Yeah. yeah. And then like YouTube goes, it's self-education books as well, like, Yeah. audible, whatever you like. Yeah. Do a little research, Yeah, I like that you mentioned Audible. One of the things that comes up a lot is, uh, the distinction between like audio books and books. Books, doesn't matter how you get the knowledge, you store out right? Don't let anybody shame you if you're a guy that needs to listen to it. Grad school kind of broke me. Most of the books I take in these days, I'm listening to, I'm not reading anymore, I, I got distinguished graduate of my program. It's not that I Yeah. I get really mad at my, my guys, um, selfishly.'cause like if I was, like, if I was on the, if I, when I was in college and I did this job and I knew how to listen to all books, I would've learned so much because that's all I would've did. While I'm doing physical, Yeah. You just had it on the I've just, yeah. Put 'em in and you learn. I'm like, you guys have so much time to learn. You can literally get paid to learn. You can just pop in the headphones and then find a book you like. Um, but yeah. So, so I think if we were gonna kinda summarize all three. It boils down to curiosity. Yeah. Don't be that guy off of indeed. That takes the first job and just stays at that job. Look around. You're gonna find happiness by knowing what's out there, even if the first job was the one. Yeah.'cause then, you know, you're not, you're not worried about it. You know what's there. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. I think there's two things that kind of cause that. One is like fear, like, oh, I need money and need it now. And the other thing is like the paralysis by analysis of everything is like, well, I don't know where to start, so yeah, I'm just gonna Mm-hmm. take the first job and take that decision outta my hands. Like, instead of doing research. What's that balance of, of action and knowledge, right? Like Mark Manson says that, uh, learning is the smart guy's procrastination, Yeah. That's my, my therapist, uh, has given me shit for that, where he is just like, you know, like, you already know everything to do. You're just not doing it. Like, you don't need more knowledge. So like, again, and certain topics, yeah. I do think I need more knowledge, but most for where my problems are right now as a company. Yeah. I don't need more knowledge. yeah. If you don't, if you don't have a step to take after spending a few hours researching something, you've probably, you've either not researched the right thing, but more often than not, you're just, you're afraid of something else. It's not what you don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Well then let's, uh, let's, I wanna respect your time and make sure I get you outta here in time to get to your Yeah. Uh, so let's get into you a little bit directly, um, that this three questions that I ask everybody that come on, right. The first one is, what's the truth about masculinity? You learned before you were 12? That remains true today. I think I used to cry about everything. Um, like, like I was very happy given that like when things would go wrong, I'd be embarrassed, I would, would cry, like all the time. Like a, a lot, a lot, a lot. Um, and it was right around 1213 where I started really getting out of it. Um, but I learned that lesson. I was like. It's okay. Like to, to kinda not be okay. Right. In that, and which is kind of the opposite Norm Asline now. But what I mean by that is now is like I learned that like, that's part of life. Like it's not going to be fair. Right. Um, and it made me very, I wanna say callous in different ways. Um, where, where I'm good at solving like those problems now. Um, and used to it. And like, I feel like I, I actually only cry ever, like in other, like, deaths in the family, anything. Like, it's movies, like during happy scenes and movie or like, whatever. Like, that's when I'll, I'll like, somehow it'll come out me. Like I have, I'm like, oh, I have, I have emotions again. But other than that, like tough times, man. Like I just, I can't imagine that there be crying before. And I think it's just because all those experiences, um, before like life isn't fair and it's gonna be hard and you can work your way through it kind of thing. So, kind of a truth for you is men have big emotions, but you have to manage 'em to get it done. Yeah. Like, like, like it's not gonna change anything. Like me crying never made it better. Right. My dad was very, very tough. Me on that. Um, 'cause it was normally during sports heavily over cry as well. Um, and it does nothing but feel like I was just feeling sorry for myself. And again, this feeling still exists, but now I channel it to more of, okay, like, why do I feel that way? What do I need to improve? Right. You know, what, what are the, what are the action steps I need to take because of that? Um, Yeah.'cause of that. So, yeah, I think, Yeah. The ca the caveat would put on that for folks is, you know, find a place and people where you can cry for a yeah. Yeah. know, Well, you gotta get it out and like you with those movies, right? Like, all right, I know, like I can't get it out the other ways, but I can get it out here a little yeah. you know? No, and uh, the caveat I wanna tell everyone here that's not, it's not that it's not okay to feel that way, right? Because I, I have a lot of conversation where we're vulnerable and we're open. Like my friend's, right? We talk about stuff and I just talk about my friends, about like, he was going through some depression and everything else, and he's, you know, we're 30, we're in thirties now, relationship stuff, right? So the issue isn't, this is not to be non emotional, right? I say it's not okay to be emotional. I'm saying I learned that my emotions, because I was crying over bullshit, right? I wasn't crying, but real sad stuff. I was crying that I struck out well, crying. well, I imagine crying like that as a kid is isolating, right? Because people are pulling away from that kind of volatility as opposed to connecting with a kid that's like crying a little Yeah, yeah. No, I, I was crying over things that like, once I couldn't jump over a fence and my friends were watching me, I was with my dad and I was embarrassed, like I cried heavily. Like I always immobilized. Um, and something that always sticks to me, and I'm saying it's okay to be upset, but just also because so upset doesn't mean it's like validated, right? Like you need to like be able to work through that. And I'm just using that as a couple examples. But it was often now. I think more than anything else, like I'm very in tune with motions, but also talking about them, especially with employees, like I go straight to the conversation. I'm really good at reading people, especially when the emotions are involved and having those tough conversations early on. Um, I think motions serve a, a, a really strong purpose. Like we have 'em for a reason. They're to direct us and trigger us. and they're not going anywhere. You might as well use Right, right. So, Like we can't get rid of 'em. Every time anybody tries, it doesn't go yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's my emotions now from Stein are triggering me. Okay. Why? That's the very first instance. Why do I feel that way? And I think that's what I'm saying. That's the lesson I learned young to start channeling it to, to start ask, be more curious, ask more questions to why my feeling feelings I have. Well, and use your emotions to move. Not to freeze. exactly. Nice. So. Good deal, man. The second one is, tell us about a time your pursuit of manhood hurt you. I think for this one and still is today kind of thing. It's like, and it's funny 'cause it's, it's like this, I believe in overcorrection, like to all so was wrong overcorrect. And I think for right now I'm still going through that Mm-hmm. about being that provider. Right. And like, when is it not enough? Um, so I have a, you know, pretty successful business. Um, you know, we just bought a, a, you know, nice house in, um, in, in New Jersey and, you know, we're looking, gonna planned a wedding and everything else. And I have to remind myself, uh, everything that's going right in life right now, right. And I'm thinking like, well I have to do more. Right? And I have to, you know, be able to, to, you know, I wanna be provided even for my parents. Like my goal is to retire my parents, right? My goal is to, you know, be provided for my employees, help them career and development and like save everybody. And same thing for my, with my family, right? And I wanna have this certain life. For them. It's not a cushy life, it's a secure life, but at the same time, help growing them and everything else. Right. And, and putting 'em the best chances for success. Um, and we'll see what happens as they get older. But I think for me, you know, I think that constant pursuit, you know, I'm on this call late right now, you said, oh, you get with your family right after that, Beyonce, right? Like, yeah. There are times where it's like balancing where, how far have I gone too far as being this provider trying to save everybody. Um, and, and you know, who am I neglecting in the meantime or am I losing that time? Right? I think some things are a gamble, right? Like, Hey, I'm only gonna work this hard for two years and then I'm gonna be able to enjoy the next 40 and two years. Turns debt. You know, like, Yeah. And then, yeah, the two years doesn't pan yeah, There's no guarantee in yeah. Like who, who, who are you working so hard for? Is like, for me, and again, it's that provider thing because it's really, it isn't, it isn't to, to really impress anyone anymore. I think when you're younger it is. Um, and maybe I should order for certain things. For me it's not, it's just. Am I, who am I, who I say I am, and what kind of life I provide for my family. Yeah. This is the, like, you know, the old cast in the cradle song. Mm-hmm. Yeah. that, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. After, you know, coming up on a decade of doing clinical work, say with some authority that I've never had a guy whose father wasn't abusive that said, I wish dad worked more. Hmm. Right. It's, and that provider man, like, we keep, I see it with clients, I see it with buddies of mine. It's happened to me. Sounds like you're, you're kind of navigating which end of it you're falling on, you can always get more. Right. You can always push and get more, but figuring out that enough line for Yeah. to balance that out is hard. And amount of guys that let that pursuit of being the provider kind of break the other relationships, Well, it's pretty consistent. when I think it, when I look at my own thing, I, I, I really do believe it's, we're. Why we have, um, uh, what's the word? Like a disposition to like gambling and stuff as humans and shit. Because like we always, like, we, we just overestimate how often we're gonna be right about something. Right. And that's where like, like for me, I'm like, oh, this task will only take this long. Right? Or that, and that's, I'm not good at, yeah, I'm getting better. But for the most part, um, I thought I'd be, I'd be farther ahead right now. And at the same time, like I did look back, like we had a record breaking week last week for the company, like most revenue we ever did in one week. Um, Nice. Nice. and you know, it's like it wins enough enough right? Kind of thing. Um, and the truth is, in, in business, you always have to have growth actually for the most part, because you need, you need to be growing for your, your, uh, employees to have a career path, right? So you're gonna get bottlenecks if you don't keep growing the company to some shape or form. So it is a, it's a tough, you know, balancing act to do that. Um, and yeah. Well, I think, I think that expansive. Role of what being a provider means As a business owner always gets tricky, Hmm. Like finding the balance of I have a responsibility to take care of my people, versus Parenty, your role for them Yeah. Yeah. is like, it's tricky. I bring it home. And so my fiance's like, I'm not one of your employees. Like, yeah, Yeah, yeah. It's hard. Don't tell, no, you don't need to do that here. Yeah. it. Yeah. But, but the, so this is the thing that's really interesting. Um, and I would love to get like a psychology like on it more, um, over 50% of our frontline employees don't have a father figure in the home. Mm-hmm. and it's always astounding me, you know, and then, uh, you how they come through and seeing, you know, the patterns, the similarities between them. Um, and I do feel obligated sometimes to, to fill that void. Um. And it's tough things like, where is it my place to be? But I've also really, really positive feedback that like, I save the text'cause it means like a lot to me, um, Yeah. do that. So again, it's like, how am I going too far? Yeah. the line. So what. Men generally need, and what boys desperately need is mentorship. And a father figure fills a lot of that space, but when they're not there, it only takes two or three guys that step in and piece pieces, right? Like that coach, that teacher, that boss that takes interest in you, shows some care and teaches you something, But that's all it needs to be for mentorship, right? A father has to love them regardless of what they Yeah. A father has to like make sure that their kids are the priority as much as they can be. As a boss, you got a whole company to take care of. You've got your family to see. Two Hmm. and never. Underestimate the power of what that mentorship's doing, even when you're dialing it back to like mentorship instead of parental. Yeah. Yeah. And that's where it's hard to tell the difference between, you know, parental and mentorship. And again, everything's gray, right? So it's, Mm-hmm. you, it's, it shouldn't be hard to know when you're in the gray area. I feel like it should be easy to know when you're outside of that area, you're going too far one way. And for one kid, this is early on, less than like year one. We, we went to his, his house and talked to his mom and like out them with his finances and all this other crap that was going on. And we had like a heart to heart with him and we 100% took that father figure role. Like we went into, we knocked and went into his house, um, Yeah. far. And that we ended getting with that employee and didn't work out. But I am, I am entirely yeah. Um, but you gotta learn on one man, like there's always the Yeah, yeah. He was our first employee, so yeah. There you go. Perfect. Perfect. Yeah, I mean, it's a hard balance, but it, uh, just by hearing you talk and listening to a few other episodes that you've done, I think you're probably hitting it better than you think you are. Just from the stories you tell. Yeah, I actually like, I, I, I do think I'm really good at that. The, the issue I have is one-on-one conversations and, and, and heart to hearts because I'm, I, I, I know how much it means to me, so I'm genuine and I think being genuine makes it effective. And I've done it a lot now, and I, and I analyze, I read on it, the issue I have is you need systems that make, that the culture in the company and that your manager are doing that and managers and, and their director reports and everybody's kind of doing it because I can't be everywhere. Right. Um, and what I say gets interpreted differently and everything else, right? So, um, that's for my next career progression really. Uh, I think that's in the companies is, I need to be able to expand on that, but, um. I think that's, I think that's any, anything that's not a job in a career has stuff like that where you are mentoring one or two steps down from you. Hmm. Not like the CEO isn't managing, like, isn't mentoring the fry Yeah. right? Like that, that can happen rarely. But for instance, the, the guy who mentored me in the field, the guy who supervised me, he's now like in his eighties. He hadn't seen a client in 15 years when he was supervising me. Because he didn't do it anymore. His whole job supervision management and education. Um, and I think just feeling those transition points, right? when it's time to be like, okay, so like I can't be with the frontline guys. Like I want to, how are the people around them filling the void? I'm leaving as I move up. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And that's where it, it's a different type of problem solve, Mm-hmm. So, um. Uh, and I'm finding that, you know, I have to be a different type of leader, manager person to be more effective in my communication, uh, and my standards and everything to do that. So Yeah. That's good, man. Well, for the, for the last one, what's a time where pursuit of your masculinity empowered you? I would say kind of going into like right now is like, it's a very political thing right now to say, you know, guys are the breadwinner, right? And women are not maker because I don't believe that. Um, I believe in like, in general, every scenario is different. Like I'm very, you know, I believe in choice. And the choice that you are wanting to make is it's whatever it is, right? Like Yeah. it's, it's up to you. You wanna do whatever you wanna do kind of thing. Yeah. And for me in this role, I believe actually more and more, um, that I would love to see where my fiance and, and everyone else, like she can have any choice she wants, right? To do Mm-hmm. whatever, pursue. Right. And that's career, that's home, whatever. Um, and you know, as you have a family, I know that'll change things. So I think for right now, I do feel very empowered in my position to be a provider. Again, we have this conversation provider thing. Um, and I think for me, uh, I, I'm very thankful that I'm in a position where I have a lot of, uh, not only through a control, but influence over Mm-hmm. my career path right now. And, and I know if I can figure some stuff out, um, that that's a, that's a privilege to have to be in the position I'm now. Yeah. I worked really hard to be where I'm now, but I'm where I'm now. Right. Um, Yeah. um. Yeah, I, I think that's where I feel really good about looking at it and say, okay, I built this so far, filled it with the team. Yeah, I didn't do it alone, but now I am in a position where I can really kind of control my own destiny. Um, and I only got there by putting myself out there, working really, really hard, taking risks, um, and, and embracing again, that whole like kind of provider. You wanna be able to be the provider. I, I always like when people acknowledge the double edge Hmm. of the masculine traits and roles and, and like you said, everybody needs to make their choice. Nobody's making a wrong choice for the individual. Right. There's nothing wrong with a guy being a homemaker. fact, it's kind of awesome when you see it. It's my favorite thing is to see a dad with a pile of kids in the grocery Bought a house right now and I'm like, systems within the. Yeah. So, but I, I like the acknowledgement of that because otherwise you can lose. Like, if you don't notice where it's hurting you, it's not gonna push you as well as you want Hmm. Right. So I, I really appreciate you kind of, threading that line between those two. I think that's gonna be I think that, I think you were afraid to, like, especially the way videos get clip nowadays, right? I ask that like, Yeah. you know, who knows how, whatever, but they're afraid to even talk about that because right now, like with cancer or cancer, cancel culture on certain things, right? Um, yeah, very much feel like you have to say he was a kicker, whatever for, um, uh, the chiefs or Yeah, chiefs, that whole thing. Like I had different opinions on how he phrase it and, and everything else on it. But if, if both sides of that relationship are happy and everything else, like your call, your decision, whatever, right? Um, and I think that's just okay. I don't think right now it's just like not okay to be different. Like that's like the, that's the thing that would get clip right. I, Mm-hmm. Yeah. that's where they feel right. Opinions. Yeah. I, I mean, we could do an entire episode of kind of how some of this stuff landed here, but you're right. The, the social dynamics of things now are a lot more about social signaling than helping people make Yeah. right? Like the dream of feminism is that people get to choose. Hmm. That's it. Like that, like at its core, that's what feminism is, is like everybody's empowered to make a choice for the life that Yeah. And I think as we kind of dial in that dream, as it were, people had to overcorrect right now, like, and it screwed everybody, right? A guy can only be a provider, but like, women have to do everything, which means being a provider too. So what's, where's the room for the guy in the family? Or before when we pushed guys so hard to the provider role, we drowned to the father role. Right. It's just about picking and like up with someone that wants similar things that you two can negotiate with. Yeah. That's And, and doesn't have to be complicated. yeah. And I think that's the whole partner up thing is like, I think your, your values will probably shift a little when, when you have kids, right? Um, Oh, they should. God. I yeah. Right. So, and at that point, again, I say it because I don't have kids yet, but like, yeah, you're gonna wanna be shifting responsibilities and work as a team, right? To Mm-hmm. provide the, what makes the most sense, um, to provide the best life and the fair life and spend time together, right. And makes between, so whatever that looks like. And, you know, my, so my fiance right now is actually in the process of starting, um, uh, her own company as well. And, you know, uh, we don't know what it will look like when you both are, you know, 'cause once you're, once you're, once you're in the entrepreneurial thing, especially early days like it, like I said, it's a ton of your time and we might. Yeah. Because she was extremely supportive with me when I started the company, right. With Yeah. So it might be her with no income. Right. And, you know, I'm thankful that, I hope I can teach her some of the lessons that I had to go through. Um, but yeah, she might, you know, I, I might have to be leaving work early to take care of the kid to help her pursue her dream. Right? Like, who knows what that dynamic looks like? And again, it's just to be there for each other, right? I do my best not to have too much of an agenda because as a therapist, right, we, that's where we can mess up our clinical work is if we have an agenda in your life. But where it's just been so consistently seen on people's happiness is almost every guy I work with. When you have kids, you gotta take a work Mm-hmm. Like not, you don't, you're gonna keep working, right? Like most guys are not gonna be the stay at home dad, but you can't be in a career push because you're gonna miss things that you don't get back. Yeah. Well. Like you're gonna miss the first steps. You're gonna not be able to coach your kid's team. You're going to all the things that you dreamt of about being a dad, Yeah. you can't do in the first 10 years of the kid being there if you wanna do those Well, and that goes back to circles, back to like, remember I talking about my anxiety? Like Mm-hmm. anxiety about, because I'm 33 now. Like, okay, I need to get all this infrastructure down in my business so I can buy time in the future with my kids. Right? Um, but then it's like, when is enough enough? Because I don't, I don't have to work as much as I to. No, and you probably don't need as much as you think you do. Like that's just it. That what I always like with people, that range is about money. I swear to God, half of 'em come in when I have them go do their books and look at their numbers and look at their goals, if they're over 35, there. right where they wanna be. They just have been, they haven't looked. And the answer has always been more. Right. the best thing clinically that you can do around money is pick an. Number and then like look for progress points in that number and see how it changes how you feel. But if you don't have a metric, you're just hosed. It's just always more. Yeah, and I'm just clear understanding, like I had a goal to buy a Bronco when I hit a certain number and a certain task and didn't, it's like, yeah, I mean, I wanted to return it and appreciate as soon as I drove off a lot because it just didn't increase the happiness as much as I thought it would. And again, I back great pool, appreciate I got it, but I'm like rather put that money towards the wedding or something else. Right. So, yeah, yeah. Priorities shifting. That's Yeah. Yeah. Well, man, I, I can't tell you how much I appreciate you coming on and the work you've been doing. Um, I'm really happy to have this conversation. It's kind of hard to find guys that can navigate that thread between the two Hmm. And I think it means a lot. It's particularly in like the political climate and how we're also divided, divide on a lot of those, uh, like economic lines, right? Where white collar folks don't respect. Blue collar folks and vice versa. I hoping that this conversation with you and the other conversations you're having having are helping guys like cross those a bit better and start to build those things Yeah. And, and again, I appreciate the time on there 'cause I've gained new perspective, um, on, you know, how you see the world and how you think about things. And I would agree on everything. And again, even if you don't agree, I think it's the point of this have conversation, right? Open to having conversations. Too many people are, again, it's all about political climate, so too many were just not open to hearing the other side. And we didn't really go too much on the other side right. Of, of anything. But, um, I hope people, yeah, I, I think there's, as you talk about, there's people that are, uh, lost, confused, right? And. Well, you know, and I think it's on purpose, man. Like I, I don't think people are failing. I think our systems are Yeah. right. It's just so easy to surround yourself with people that think like you, You? that it's hard to remember. Yeah. And you know, I, I think, what was it in the, like the eighties or nineties, you could sit down with somebody from anywhere in America and you, you two were likely to agree on 70% of the issues facing the country in that Mm-hmm. Right. And now like we don't even get to find out that number 'cause we find out like, so guns are my thing. Where are you on Yeah. Oh, abortion's my thing. Where are you an Yeah. And then like, none of the rest of it Yeah. And again, I don't think we actually agree on most things. It's just that the, I learned this from a psychologist. I was, uh, his name was Eric Ols, and he mentored me a couple years ago, and Nice. um, the biggest issue in conversations is the defensive wall. Once the defensive wall gets triggered, there is no more listening. Right. Um, and literally the, the part of the brain, I forget the brain stem, that shares logic and, um, emotions like they share, share the same neural pathway or whatever. It's so like once you, once you get emotional logic goes out the window, so you gotta stop that trigger from going out, but you wanna have effective conversation. Yeah. I. I would reframe that from emotional to defensive, Yeah. right? Like once you feel like you have to protect yourself, you are not supposed to be in a space to be curious about somebody Yeah. And you can't be curious about somebody else without being secure in your defenses. And that's Right? hierarchy needs kind of thing too, as well. Yeah. I just like that curiosity is emotional, right? Like your interest in people, the reason why your companies have done so well, the reason why your employees like you, like they do, the reason why you're able to come on here and connect with thousands of people that you've never met is because you are emotional about the curiosity of Hmm. Right? And that wouldn't happen if you didn't give a shit. Yeah. Think it's a lot of work. Yeah. It sounds like a lot of work, man. I have not done your gig, but man, it sounds like you do a lot of Yeah. As I think, uh, I dunno. I, I think everything's a lot of work. Right. Yeah. A lot, a lot of, As long. As long as it's worth doing, yeah. All right, man. Well, I. In. I can't tell you how much I appreciate the time. Thanks so much for coming and sharing these Appreciate it. I'm, uh, I'm looking forward to staying in touch. Appreciate it. Uh.